New Suggestion Inconsistencies and stuff.

Arbee

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Oct 16, 2020
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Hi, big wall of text here.
First of all i would like to start off with a short introduction.

My name is arbee (rb, my initials) and I live in the northern part of Norway. Usually you will see me online with Hjarkan which is my in real life brother. I have a lot of hours on this game and I was a moderator on another EU, vanilla server by the name of PEZ once upon a time.
I recently found this server and I’ve been having a great time. There are a lot of friendly players and I really love an old school vanilla server and the time difference makes it perfect for my messed-up sleep schedule.

With that being said I do tend to find some inconstencies which I would like to discuss. To make it more organized I will split it up in 3 parts

1. “Traitorbaiting”
In this point I would like to discuss the pretty big inconsistency when it comes to traitorbaiting with focus on “accidental” gunfire and props. The reason why I’m bringing this up is that it seems that the admins and moderators themselves are uncertain as to what to do and sometimes people get slayed and sometimes nothing happens, which is frustrating for a player like me when I don’t know what I can and can’t do.

Accidental gunfire:
It would be fair to say that if someone shoots near you, or shoots an explosive prop that is next to you it would be natural to assume that the player that did that, did so with the intent to kill, right? Well that’s not always the case seeing as this has been brought up and I (and others) have been reported for it and sometimes I see slays go out.

Props:
This is mostly the biggest reason I’m writing this post because it’s kind off what made me notice the inconsistencies. To make it better illustrated let me paint you a picture.

On community pools there are turtles which you can carry around. One time on this map the same player carried around not just one, but three turtles in a single round (at different times) into unsuspecting players. I noticed this and thought that the first was sus because why would an innocent player want to make other innocent players die, but I let it slide. The second time he did it I warned him, and the third time I killed him. This player then reported me stating that I couldn’t kill for doing that, which I responded to “how is that not t-baiting?” or something along that line. One admin/moderator and the player who reported me told me that I was in the wrong, and another admin/moderator checked the rules and found that if carrying the axe on rooftops is considered t-baiting, so should this.

This sparked a lively little discussion where I was left uncertain if I should be slain or not. Obviously, I don’t want to RDM so if it’s wrong I will take the slay even though I disagree with it.

Another time we were playing around with the bowling balls on community bowling(?) and bowling balls where flying around. Seeing as I really don’t know how to propkill at all I rarely partake in this (but I’ve turned my sensitivity up now so I will admit that I’ve been trying it out some), but I do however, stand and watch to see who kills who and what I can do if something happens.
Obviously, something happens. Player X chucks a bowling ball and it flies straight past me. I take this as a threat and I retaliate, killing player X. I get reported, dies and reply to it, but here I get slain because that wasn’t allowed seeing as it was a bowling ball and that’s not considered a traditional prop(?). I ask around if that was a fair slay and the majority agrees with me that it wasn’t which sparked a short discussion again.

Normally this wouldn’t really phase me, but what bothers me is that it would seem that the line for what constitutes traitorbaiting hasn’t been properly established leaving us other players confused and frustrated when actions suddenly happen and sometimes it doesn’t.

There are more examples, but I think these two summarize it well enough.


2. Visualizer and skins

I’ll keep this short seeing as there isn’t much to explain.
That I can’t shoot someone who wears (for example) a skeleton skin when he’s the only one wearing that skin at that time is just dumb. I understand that it would be unfair for the player who wears the skin and that it would put him in a disadvantage, but that’s just the way it is. The whole point with the game is to deduce who and who aren’t the traitor and when I can’t kill a traitor knowing that he is the only one with that skin online at that time and I’m being ‘forced’ to eventually get killed myself and/or that the traitor kills other is beyond stupid and goes against the very premise of the game.
Yes, this really happened.

3. Not allowed to act on the obvious

This wasn’t really an issue until today. I was slain twice today for RDM which I disagree with. The first one was when a player killed the detective Infront of me and another player. I arrive somewhat late to the scene of the crime, but I do notice that the kill on the detective and the player who killed is running away so press my “this person Is a traitor bind” and call it out on the mic. Meanwhile the player who was WITH the traitor and detective does absolutely nothing, he doesn’t call him out in chat or on comms, neither does he fire at him which lead me to kill him as well.

Of course he was the traitor and he was not happy with being killed and I was slain for it (I was also slain because another traitor happen to walk into my crossfire when I was shooting at the second guy, but I agree with that slay).
The reason I react is because as previously mentioned, it’s a game about establishing given roles and when he fails to uphold his role as an innocent it would be nothing else but pure stupidity not to act upon it. There are many reasons why I chose to kill him.

  • He didn’t call out in chat or mic, despite him having a mic
  • He didn’t shoot the traitor, despite him being in front of him
  • The guy who got killed was the detective, leaving it no confusion to whether or not the body was a traitor or not
  • The traitor who killed the detective didn’t kill him, despite having the opportunity to do so.
I would also like to note that after this happened I was left little time to explain myself and was primarily shouted down by three traitors claiming I RDM’d. And despite me disagreeing with what they were saying I still suicided the two following rounds, and then I was still slain for 2 more rounds, forcing me to sit out 4 rounds.
I mean the point with slaying is that you’re accountable for your actions, and I took them. If I suicide the following rounds that counts as a slay, why was those 2 extra necessary? I’ve repented for my actions. Whether I suicide or get slayed is beside the point as long as I sit it out.

The other example I have is what happened recently. We were playing on innocentmotel (I think the map is called) and I hear a single sniper shot and that someone falls to the ground, I immediately double back and id’d the body. The body was sniped from distance leaving no DNA and I see 3 others in the hallway, which was the only way he could’ve been shot.
2 of them was holding other primaries than a sniper and the last one holstered. Keep in mind that this happened in a timespan of maybe 2-4 seconds leaving the escape possibility zero to none. I kill the person who holstered, and the player was a traitor. I die and try to explain that its pretty standard process of elimination where it leaves no room for suspicion and that I’ve been killed for this countless times without even batting an eye, but this would fall for deaf ears because I was quickly shut down by two admins and slayed the round after.



Remember that I’m not American so my explanation can be somewhat lacking, just write back and I will try to explain it better if something is uncertain. Sorry fellas.

I also have some clips which I would like to share with you guys. 😊

-arbee
 
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Arbee

New member
Oct 16, 2020
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I have to add something on the visualizer since it got confusing.

The story with visualizer is when there is only one person with that skin and the visualizer shows that the person with that skin killed him. If there are others with the same skin i completly and agree that you can't just kill as you please.
 

Mogi

poopy head - Honorary Title by Hingle
Sep 14, 2020
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This thread seems to be echoing concerns that others have brought up before, so it may be helpful to see the threads and staff's responses there for context as I feel there is a decent amount of overlap in some areas.

the threads:

propkilling: https://forums.playbtg.com/index.php?threads/better-clarification-on-prop-throwing-killing.204/
staff inconsistency: https://forums.playbtg.com/index.php?threads/feedback-on-staffs-enforcement-of-rules.183/

also, some of the reasons in this area specifically will be categorized as "killing off of suspicion" which is against the rules at the current time.

  • He didn’t call out in chat or mic, despite him having a mic
  • He didn’t shoot the traitor, despite him being in front of him
  • The guy who got killed was the detective, leaving it no confusion to whether or not the body was a traitor or not
  • The traitor who killed the detective didn’t kill him, despite having the opportunity to do so.

That being said, I completely agree that your concerns are valid and worth looking into. Especially since during my time here this seems to have come up a lot.
 
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Meowii

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Jul 16, 2020
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I can understand your confusion so let me break each part down for you.

1. “Traitorbaiting”
"it seems that the admins and moderators themselves are uncertain as to what to do and sometimes people get slayed and sometimes nothing happens"
Staff from what I can see handle T-Baiting actions well as they watch deathscenes and logs to see what happened in the report. The reason why people get slain is due to them killing off of non kosable actions or accidental rdm. When you see nothing happen to the player that is reported, its because traitor baiting can lead to you being killed as stated in https://playbtg.com/t-baiting.php. "The following actions are considered traitor baiting. If you do any of these actions, expect to be killed."

Accidental Gunfire:
Stated inside of the same link above, the first point that is considered t-baiting is "Shooting in the general direction of players or in a populated area with no obvious intent."

Props:

The difference between the turtle props on community bowling revamp and the axe on rooftops is the turtle props are t traps and any traitor can explode it while the axe on rooftops can be activated by both traitors and innocents and can cause damage to players. This can be compared to the diamond sword on the minecraft cave map, mines in whitehouse and the doodlebob pencil in spongebob as they all are categorized as the same as the axe and is kosable to hold. During your community bowling stay, if a prop does any damage to you then you can kill the person and/or report them (only if it does 20+ damage) otherwise if a person is just throwing props near you aren't allowed to kill them.

2. Visualizer and skins:
Visualizers aren't always accurate when it comes to skins as I can say from personal experience. It may show as random skins as it showed me as a zombie solider in the visualizer when I wasn't. As for kosing off of skins, as painfully obvious a person might be unless you seen their name you can't kill/kos off of skin as players can change their player models mid game which doesn't make player models a reliable source for killing someone.


3. Not allowed to act on the obvious:


The first scenario you said would be considered killing off of suspicion as you aren't allowed to kill off of association. This is stated in the non-kosable actions of the t-baiting section.
"
You may not kill someone because they do not interfere with a shoot-out."
"You cannot kill someone for not following a KOS. This is only suspicion."

The second scenario involving you slaying yourself isn't necessary as accidental rdm on all violations is 1 auto-slay per player. (If the player is reported)
Slaying yourself doesn't count as you serving your slay. If it did, anyone would be able to simply slay themselves and count it as a slay.

The last scenario which I was involved with as you were the one that killed me, Me and another staff member took a look at the deathscene and watched as you didn't see me shoot but heard the bullet and purely guessed off of that. "Keep in mind that this happened in a timespan of maybe 2-4 seconds leaving the escape possibility zero to none." We were near a corner so the traitor could have either teleported or walked around it. As stated in the "Killing/Fight Rules" "Killing without 100% undeniable proof is not allowed. At no time can you kill on suspicion."

Hope this helped, feel free to express any concerns regarding anything I said or message me in private if you have any questions.



 

Trundler

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Jul 17, 2020
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I think you bring up a lot of good points about how TTT can be messy in general. It's really hard to create infallible rules since the number of edge cases for any given rule is huge. Any functioning staff team in TTT will need to make dozens of moderation decisions a day to strike a balance between a no-fun authoritarian server and a no-fun lawless server.

Thankfully, the rules we have have been curated and filtered through many years of vanilla or nearly-vanilla TTT. As an example, your process of elimination kill may seem obvious, but is it also possible a good traitor already left the area, swapped their weapon, or performed some other maneuver to avoid being caught. In the end, the kill is based on suspicion and there is always a chance you will strike down an innocent. This has happened to me personally many times over the years.

Some of your points are completely valid - if you are shooting at a traitor and another traitor walks into your line of fire, that is considered crossfire and you should not have been slain for it (at least to my knowledge).

We really appreciate your concerns and hope you'll get more accustomed to how Browntown TTT is played as you spend more time here. Your level of thought and thoroughness on these subjects are what we like to see from a healthy playerbase.
 

Cameron

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2. Visualizer and skins

I’ll keep this short seeing as there isn’t much to explain.
That I can’t shoot someone who wears (for example) a skeleton skin when he’s the only one wearing that skin at that time is just dumb. I understand that it would be unfair for the player who wears the skin and that it would put him in a disadvantage, but that’s just the way it is. The whole point with the game is to deduce who and who aren’t the traitor and when I can’t kill a traitor knowing that he is the only one with that skin online at that time and I’m being ‘forced’ to eventually get killed myself and/or that the traitor kills other is beyond stupid and goes against the very premise of the game.
Yes, this really happened.
I also want to add to Meowii's comment about visualizer being unreliable. There was a round where I was called out because the visualizer revealed a skeleton model and I was the only one alive with that model so it had to be me. I don't remember if it was you that did it but there's another testament to why we don't allow you to take action off of something like that. I was innocent that round and had not killed anybody.
 
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